• jaemo@sh.itjust.works
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    12 days ago

    Hey does Pepperidge farms remember all the fucking morons on Lemmy urging not to vote for Harris because she was allegedly complicit in genocide? I sure as shit do.

    Know what’s gonna be objectively worse, 100% regardless of the veracity those allegations? The reality that they helped forge instead.

    • Funkwonker@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      12 days ago

      I still can’t get over how they were essentially presented with a simplified version of the trolley problem and chose to not pull the lever.

      By their own narrative that “the democrats are complicit in a genocide in Gaza”, they were aware that Palestinians were metaphorically tied to both tracks, yet decided to not pull the lever when America itself and every marginalized person living within was also on the track the trolley barreled towards.

      • CosmicTurtle0@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        11 days ago

        I suspected that many of the accounts were Russian plants or Trump supporters trying to divide the Democrat vote. Most of the time when I checked account age they were made either that day or the day before.

        I know that Lemmy is new and all but still was sus.

        I haven’t gone back to accounts to see if they are still active. I suspect that they aren’t.

        • fine_sandy_bottom@discuss.tchncs.de
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          11 days ago

          I suspect that what we saw here on lemmy were actual people who had been indoctrinated elsewhere.

          Lemmy isn’t really big enough to be a target for bots and so on.

          • Croquette@sh.itjust.works
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            11 days ago

            Bots are cheap to write. That’s naive to think there wasn’t a disinformation war going on with bots being on the forefront of it.

            • fine_sandy_bottom@discuss.tchncs.de
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              11 days ago

              Hmm, I’m not naive enough to believe that Lemmy is free from disinformation and bad actors, but I would be surprised if it was targeted by sophisticated state actors.

        • finitebanjo@lemmy.world
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          11 days ago

          Even worse, I think those Tankies really were just Tankies. They don’t want the USA to be fixed, they don’t care about creating actual socialism, they just want us all to off each other. I would get into discussions with those supposed purists abstaining from Kamala in democrat centric discussions and they almost always out themselves as another masked up Tankie talking about the USA as an evil empire that needs more destruction.

          They’re still active now, too, trying to promote their version of “resistance” which is just more of the nation harming itself until nothing is left to oppose the CCP.

        • Harvey656@lemmy.world
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          11 days ago

          I actually disagree. I went through many of their comments and post histories. Looked alot like real people with one, devastating bad opinion.

      • zeezee@slrpnk.net
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        11 days ago

        Calling it simplified does a disservice of the real world impacts of the “trolley” - especially since unlike a thought experiment - this trolley problem is physically constructed by people to achieve imperialistic goals - so expending energy blaming random lemmings for this - instead of figuring out who built, maintains and presents the trolley as the only option and how to dismantle it seems useless.

        I believe we should avoid infighting and actually organize to do something so we don’t have to choose if we pull the lever or not every 4 years (if there even is another election…)

        • Clent@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          11 days ago

          You do not understand the trolley problem. It’s not about assoging blame it’s about the dilemma of no perfect choices.

          If you refuse to make a choice until the system has been perfected, until the people who created the system are held to account, etc you are still inside the trolley problem and are actively choosing not to touch the lever. Everyone who chooses to not touch the lever has their own reasons.

          They’ve articulated their’s. This does not change that fact that they choose not to touch the lever. It does not absolve their accountability. It is their choice and refusing to accept their accountability simply indicates they will refuse to touch lever each time they are presented with a trolley problem.

          It is not in our interest to expect them change. So far, those who have choose to touch the lever have shown zero sign they regret their decision. Maybe they will but until they do, they are not welcome at the war table for solving the system. They cannot not to be trusted.

          We cannot continue to be the weak forgiving party. It is the very trait being used against us. It is the very trait of the Democrats that many are demanding.

          Those who refuse are among those voicing such demands but they have shown utter disloyalty and therefore have to be excluded from the solution as they do not pass the bar they have set.

          Accepting those who refused the choice requires a compromise. Those of us who made the choice cannot afford to compromise. Things are moving too quickly to deal with those who must be coddled.

      • alcoholicorn@lemmy.ml
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        11 days ago

        Why the fuck did the democrats leave Palestinians to their tracks?

        This didn’t have to be a difficult problem where we’re forced to vote for genocide. The only people at fault for the democrats doing something as wildly unpopular as genocide, silencing anyone who said “You need to stop this if you want to win”, and reaping the effects of that policy being unpopular are the democrats.

      • Iceman@lemmy.world
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        11 days ago

        I find it scary how easily people where fine with having genocide on both sides of the ticket.

        • spooky2092@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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          11 days ago

          Not having a choice and being fine with with the choice you have are drastically different situations, and it’s concerning how many people are incapable of unwilling to tell the difference between the two.

          • dx1@lemmy.world
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            11 days ago

            I would argue the entire problem is the self-defeating mentality that the D vs R choice is the only choice. It’s in fact the population believing that - in itself - that results in the poor election outcomes for third parties. Something which was not true as recently as 30 years ago.

            The population, in fact, has the option to vote for any candidate on the ballot, or even write in candidates. The so-called “viability” of third party candidates is a mental fiction. The “viability” only has to do with people’s willingness to vote for them, which, in a massive circular logic, is based on their perception that the rest of the population will not vote for them. That is the actual mechanism at play here (besides the truly brainwashed, faithful supporters of the two major parties, at least).

            In fact, the entire U.S. constitutional system is only a tradition/custom, that we have the option to up and abandon when it no longer serves us. The reason we get stuck with it is the various state actors (cops, military) who do not understand that it’s not some sacred inviolable thing, or actually support it, and are willing to use violence on the population to enforce its implementation. What actually happens if the indoctrination of the entire population - Trump and Harris supporters and all - is undone, and we come up with a different, better vision for our society?

            • spooky2092@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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              11 days ago

              I would argue the entire problem is the self-defeating mentality that the D vs R choice is the only choice. It’s in fact the population believing that - in itself - that results in the poor election outcomes for third parties.

              I’m not going to read the rest of your response, because you might as well be telling me that the person with the most points isn’t the one who wins the superbowl. Between that and what little I read of your second paragraph tells me you either don’t understand the system, or you don’t understand game theory when one side is always going to vote for their guy regardless of how criminal or openly fascistic he is.

              It isn’t a self defeating choice that got us here it’s literally how the system was designed. You say it wasn’t like this 30 years ago, but I question how much you remember of the bush elections, because it’s worse, but this was the natural progression with a party who is pathologically against actual governance.

              • dx1@lemmy.world
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                11 days ago

                I’m not going to read the rest of your response,

                Then don’t reply.

                or you don’t understand game theory when one side is always going to vote for their guy regardless of how criminal or openly fascistic he is.

                Humans are not robots. Anyone can vote for anyone. Their mindset at the time of voting is the only thing that determines their vote. Do notice how fixated people are on attacking third party voters with almost no influence over the election, instead of… 77 million? Trump voters, who decided the election. Have you tried unbrainwashing them at all? Like, tally up all the time you spent trying to influence people’s votes - what percent was aimed at Trump voters?

                It isn’t a self defeating choice that got us here it’s literally how the system was designed.

                It resulted from the design of the system + our society, but those two things are not mutually exclusive. Logical error.

        • oyo@lemm.ee
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          11 days ago

          No sane people were fine with it, but sane people have to live in the real world and not believe some fucking fantasy that there was another option at the time.

          • dx1@lemmy.world
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            11 days ago

            Let’s start with the very basic logic here. Let’s say 80, 90 million people come out and vote for, say, De la Cruz. Accounting for the electoral college and all that, enough to secure a victory. Is it not true that virtually all of us had the option to put a check next to her name, or write that name in? It is true. Is it true that we would have had a better outcome for the society with De la Cruz, than we would have with Harris or Trump? That is also true. So what - SPECIFICALLY - stopped this from happening.

            • CommissarVulpin@lemmy.world
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              11 days ago

              Because I’ve never heard of De la Cruz, or any of the other third-party candidates that people keep espousing. And even if I had, my vote would be split among the other dozen candidates. That’s the fundamental problem with anyone left of the Democrat party - they’re not unified. Everyone seems to have a different idea of what would be best, everyone seems to have a different favorite candidate. Now all the votes that might have gone D are lost in the noise, while the R’s just fall in line like they always do.

              • dx1@lemmy.world
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                11 days ago

                How is it that I had heard of them months before the election, and you’re still catching up?

                Back to the point I made elsewhere - the population is abdicating their responsibility to vote responsibly, that is the core problem here. Election came and went, and you didn’t even research the non-D/R candidates. As the saying goes, politics isn’t a spectator sport. Your approach is basically like going to a car dealership and asking them nicely to give the best deal. You gave up all your power at the door. You didn’t fight them on the random fees they threw into the price, you just went, well, at least it’s not the RAM dealership across the street. You didn’t look on Craigslist for used cars listed by sellers, you didn’t ask a mechanic what brand to get, nothing.

            • SatansMaggotyCumFart@lemmy.world
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              11 days ago

              If everyone who had voted for Harris had voted for De la Cruz instead she still wouldn’t have won.

              There are no serious third party options in the US currently.

              • dx1@lemmy.world
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                11 days ago

                If everyone who had voted for Harris had voted for De la Cruz instead she still wouldn’t have won.

                And?

                There are no serious third party options in the US currently.

                As assessed by you, based on arbitrary criteria and questionable analysis.

                • SatansMaggotyCumFart@lemmy.world
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                  11 days ago

                  I just gave you the results of a poll called the 2024 election.

                  Is that based on arbitrary criteria and questionable analysis?

          • Iceman@lemmy.world
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            11 days ago

            We are enjoying the fruits of constantly lowering our moral standards. We see more anger towards those who where critical of the genocide than those who needlessly insisted on perpetuating it.

              • dx1@lemmy.world
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                11 days ago

                That anger is extremely misdirected. You demand unity behind your political candidates, from people who refuse to support them on account of them seeing absolutely horrendous flaws that you refuse to see yourselves.

                Why would a mass murderer deserve unity behind them, but a non-mass-murderer doesn’t? The fact that you’ve arrived at that conclusion at all demonstrates the absolutely bankruptcy of your political reasoning - the things that we’re trying to achieve with a social system in the first place are sacrificed. Human life, economic equality, quality of life, all of it.

                You’ve lost sight of the entire goal. That’s the logic of drug addiction - chasing a high, diminishing returns, at the cost of your health. You’re continually investing in something which provides you worse and worse outcomes, and refusing to acknowledge alternate choices.

      • bitjunkie@lemmy.world
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        11 days ago

        It’s almost like single-issue voters aren’t very good at logic problems…

        • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
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          11 days ago

          The trolley problem is not a logic problem JFC. Every one of you gets an F in philosophy 101.

    • geneva_convenience@lemmy.mlOP
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      12 days ago

      I remember the BBC manufacturing consent for Joe Biden and Kamala Harris complicity genocide as well.

    • Toribor@corndog.social
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      11 days ago

      It’s also obvious that Trump and BB were coordinating during the election to ensure Biden couldn’t get a ceasefire deal in place in order to harm him politically. But as soon as Trump takes the office they just agree to a ceasefire no problem (as if that hadn’t been the plan all along) aaaaaaand then Trump goes off about finishing the job and annexing the whole west bank for the US. What a fucking surprise.

      • bitjunkie@lemmy.world
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        11 days ago

        I thought the ceasefire happened under Biden, but after the election had already been lost?

        • zarkanian@sh.itjust.works
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          11 days ago

          It did, but it was Trump’s representative who got the deal done. Trump didn’t want to deal with the hostage crisis along with everything else he had planned.

      • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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        11 days ago

        It’s also obvious that Trump and BB were coordinating during the election to ensure Biden couldn’t get a ceasefire deal in place in order to harm him politically

        And Biden played right into their hands.

    • SmilingSolaris@lemmy.world
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      11 days ago

      The point was to pressure the Dems into giving up on genocide. You wanna talk about “pepperidge farm remembers”, I got one for ya

      Remember when the Dems thought they could win while actively telling people who were anti genocide to go fuck themselves?

      Hey, what’s weirder? Not voting for someone committing genocide, or being unwilling to stop committing a genocide even if it costs you the election?

      How does it feel that the only thing that Harris had to do was say “I will stop weapons to Israel” and she would of won?

      You can’t keep blaming the voters when the strategy was at fault. They knew they would lose votes. They thought they could court the centrists and liberal Republicans to make up for it. They were so fucking wrong. And somehow it’s not their own fault for having the worst campaign strategy known to man.

      Like, Christ. Y’all ain’t ever gonna stop trying to blame leftists. You’ll be up against the wall with leftists fighting for your life and you’ll still be like “can’t believe you didn’t vote Harris”. I can’t believe Harris threw away the election over the continued genocide of palastinians. That’s fucking crazy. Is that not crazy to you? You don’t find it fucking insane that the Dems would rather a fascist state than stop actively committing a genocide? Cause that’s the fucking Gambit they ran and look where we are.

      Look. I’m pissed. Your pissed. But we are just people with no power. Same with all those voters you wanna complain about. All we have is the ability to yell and vote. And while I voted for Harris out of fucking fear, I cannot blame the people who yelled “I will not vote for you if you keep committing genocide” and were fucking CALLED ON THAT SHIT. What kind of monster gambles with their own base over a fucking genocide?

      • MountingSuspicion@reddthat.com
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        11 days ago

        As a fellow reluctant Harris voter, what upsets me the most is that the numbers people have run shows that no, actually, genocide was not the deciding factor in this election, which is kind of an indictment of America itself, but regardless, I’m sick of leftists being blamed when all the ones I know STILL voted Harris and the data shows that it wasn’t leftist that didn’t turn out, it was centrists. Harris didn’t have a voter base. Sure, some dems turned out, but she didn’t actually inspire people to vote, and that’s basically the only way dems win.

        • zarkanian@sh.itjust.works
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          11 days ago

          It’s because she has no message. All she could promise voters was stuff like “I’ll give you a little bit of money to help you get a house.” She was all flash and no substance.

          • alcoholicorn@lemmy.ml
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            11 days ago

            *for first time homebuyers who have rented for at least 2 years without a late payment

            Because there’s nothing that makes a proposal more popular than adding means-testing.

            She had a message, it was “more of the same”; when asked what she would do differently from Biden her response wasn’t “Fuck this guy who spent the last 4 years doing fuckall, I would have defended abortion rights, appointed an AG who would have put Trump in prison and gone after Manchin and Sinoma, and any republican, a head of the DEA who would have unscheduled cannabis, etc”, she said the difference was that she would appoint a republican to the cabinet.

            • Prehensile_cloaca @lemm.ee
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              11 days ago

              100%

              She could have read a laundry list of her First Week, Month intended actions and won over huge swaths of voters- if that was her strategy to win.

              Instead she chose fuckall, which is exactly what Biden did for 4 years.

          • Krauerking@lemy.lol
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            11 days ago

            That promise for housing gets misquoted as well as what she actually offered was:
            First generation homebuyers who no one in their family has ever owned a house, after paying rent in a government approved rental firm for 2 years could get up to $25,000. And stated starter homes would cost between $300,000 and $800,000 dollars depending on location.

            She did have a point to ask Congress to pass legislation to slow people buying more than 50 single family homes.

            This was lost to her wealthy advisors telling her to not go through with these plans as they would impact the investment opportunities of housing.

            She barely even got to flash before the DNC tried to reign in anything that might change things.

            • MountingSuspicion@reddthat.com
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              11 days ago

              Yea, I see a lot of quotes online about how her brother-in-law or whatever had her rein in some policies and how she had a bunch of advisors that further reined in her policies, but if anything that kind of proves their point. She had no substance of her own and was willing to campaign on literally nothing believing that was the way to get elected. Kinda a devastating indictment of both her and the dems and the political industrial complex.

              • Krauerking@lemy.lol
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                11 days ago

                Agreed. Absolutely agreed.

                She offered so little in the first place that the fact that she was told to offer even less with expectations that it would make her win the more desperate masses because it wasn’t anything “bad™” at least… It’s a huge statement on what they want to offer and what they expect in return:

                The answer to both is simply, nothing.
                Give nothing and expect nothing in return so that things hopefully stay the same. It’s a massive failing of politics right now.

          • MountingSuspicion@reddthat.com
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            11 days ago

            For what it’s worth, she did have some good policy proposals, but she had some good policy proposals for a neoliberal. The US has had enough of neo liberal politics, and it’s extremely unfortunate that it meant a turn to fascism. She was going to be a JoeBiden 2.0, if not even less effective. Joe Biden’s seminal piece of legislation with build back better couldn’t even make it through. Easy to point to things that you want to do, even if they are liberal, but neo liberals have been failing to enact even their absolutely minimal policy desires. It’s so pathetic and so sad that we are all suffering because the owning class is the way that it is

        • Eugene V. Debs' Ghost@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          11 days ago

          Why blame the politicians with data and statistics on how to run a campaign when you can blame the voters who showed up?

          How many times do we have to “swallow our pride” to vote for milquetoast candidates before we can have change? How many times do I have to vote for “nothing will fundamentally change” before I can call bullshit?

          • MountingSuspicion@reddthat.com
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            11 days ago

            This exactly. Honestly, the thing I hate most about the republicans isn’t even who they are, it’s who they’ve made us. I’ve compromised on my morals more than I can count just to still be ruled by fascists. I wish I could at least have arrived here on a high horse lmaoooo.

            • Eugene V. Debs' Ghost@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              11 days ago

              Republicans are obviously fucking evil. They smile as they pass laws that enable the worst parts of the government to be even worse. And then say it’s because of the woke or some shit.

              And then democrats just… Allow it. They then go “our compromise was that we allowed 2% less people to die from this bill being passed. So only 500K will die from this, instead of 501K.”

              And it’s obviously better by numbers, but that’s all they want. Pure data. They don’t care about the optics of actually trying to stop republicans, they want the look of it.

              They don’t want to stop aiding genocide, pretending they care about BIPOC as they say to bipartisan applause “We need to fund the police!” as they kneel for a photo.

              But pass a law that says “Police should obey the laws they enforce” is impossible for them, somehow, no matter how many votes they get.

              I’ve been swindled too many times. Republicans are obvious in that they hate me. Democrats act like a friend and then ghost you.

              • MountingSuspicion@reddthat.com
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                11 days ago

                Wish I had more to add, but you definitely covered it all. It’s just gross. I know fascists win when we disengage, but dems have been teeing this up for them to knock out of the park for decades. I just wish you and yours the best and I hope you’re safe and able to make it through.

      • Eugene V. Debs' Ghost@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        11 days ago

        Remember when the Dems thought they could win while actively telling people who were anti genocide to go fuck themselves?

        I do, and was downvoted for calling it out from my last account, and this one for remembering it.

        Are these people gaslit or are they doing it for their favorite political celebrities who don’t know they exist or care for them?

          • Eugene V. Debs' Ghost@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            11 days ago

            Democrats love losing because it gives them more money as Republicans enact evil policies. “We can’t stop them! …unless you give us what’s left of your paycheck! That’s how we can stop trump! Your money!”

      • Franklin@lemmy.world
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        11 days ago

        voting is power, hell not voting is power. is it a fair system?

        fuck no, but not voting did help get us here

        disclaimer: gerrymandering and voter suppression also played a huge role

      • Dagwood222@lemm.ee
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        11 days ago

        You know who committed genocide?

        Stalin killed thousands of Poles. The USA had lynchings going on all through WW2. I’m not even going to start on the UK.

        And they were all better alternatives than Hitler.