My wife and I are rewatching The Next Generation and just finished Measure of a Man, the episode in season 2 in which Data’s personhood is legally debated and his life hangs in the balance.
I genuinely found this episode infuriating in its stupidity. It’s the first episode we skipped even a little bit. It was like nails on a chalkboard.
There is oodles of legal precedent that Data is a person. He was allowed to apply to Starfleet, graduated, became an officer and rose to the rank of Lt. Commander with all the responsibilities and privileges thereof.
Comparing him to a computer and the judge advocate general just shrugging and going to trial over it is completely idiotic. There are literal years and years of precedent that he’s an officer.
The problem is compounded because Picard can’t make the obvious legal argument and is therefore stuck philosophizing in a court room, which is all well and good, but it kind of comes down to whether or not Data has a soul? That’s not a legal argument.
The whole thing is so unbelievably ludicrous it just made me angrier and angrier. It wasn’t the high minded, humanistic future I’ve come to know and love, it was a kangaroo court where reason and precedent took a backseat to feeling and belief.
I genuinely hated it.
To my surprise, in looking it up, I discovered it’s considered one of the high water marks for the entire show. It feels like I’m taking crazy pills.
I mean… yeah, the episode isn’t as focused on procedural detail, and I do live for legal process minutia, but I can fill in the blanks just fine and suspend disbelief.
I mean, the question being raised is whether Data has been operating as a person willingly joined Starfleet or as salvaged equipment. If Data had been roaming around on his own and then applied to join Starfleet I’d be more nitpicky, but he was found and turned on by Starfleet and he seems to have been in the system since, so I can see the question of how to categorize him coming up retroactively. Especially in retrospect, since we eventually get undeniable confirmation that AGI is very much possible within their normal gear.
I mean, for the record, by the time Voyager comes around we know that they have protocols to use holographic AIs to substitute in for key personnel, so if you can have a “EMH” slot in for an officer you can have a piece of salvaged machinery operate with a rank and then reassign it to a different role… unless that entity has personhood. It IS a sci-fi as hell concept, but a valid one in-universe.
Me, I would have very much enjoyed Noonyien Soong arguing whether he still owns Data and learn what is legal salvage in Starfleet territory but for the sake of 90s network TV I can see “Is this android truly a life form” being the approach to a Trek episode. And thematically… well, I can’t get through the Goldberg and Stewart scene about slavery without tearing up. It isn’t just how good they both are, it’s the “oh, crap, they’re saying the thing” element to it, too.
Of course that means Starfleet straight up condoned slavery later, as per Star Trek Picard season 1. I would gladly remove all of Picard from lore at this point, but nope, officially Starfleet had legal proceedings to determine that Soong androids are people and to remove their autonomy is akin to slavery and then went ahead and did it anyway.
Picard sucks and is the worst Star Trek thing ever, is what I’m trying to say. Yes, way worse than anything in Discovery. Including season three.
So as someone who never watched Picard, its a skip?
Picard was fumbled hard overall.
They had some concepts that could’ve been deeply interesting, such as [SPOILERS] a dead Borg Cube in Romulan space, being studied by the Romulans, and looking for Bruce Maddox, the scientist who wanted to study Data in Measure of a Man (S1), Q dying and wanting to engage with Picard before he goes (S2), but they did a really bad job.
Season 3 is a lot better. A lot of the sound and cinematography is great, it feels more like a Star Trek film than a TV show in terms of how it’s presented. That in itself isn’t a good thing or a bad thing, but I personally liked it.
It’s a bit fan-servicey - there were times when I liked that, but also times I rolled my eyes. I’d say Season 3 is worth watching, and you’ll either like it or you won’t. Thankfully, the show pretty much resets itself for season 3, and you don’t really need any info from Seasons 1/2 going into it.
Season 2 can absolutely be ignored entirely going into season 3, which is good because season 2 is complete garbage. And that annoys the hell out of me because it’s the one with Q, Guinan, and even a brief appearance of Wesley.
I watched, and really enjoyed Season 1, even with its flaws. I started season 2, and turned it off after I think an episode. I don’t know if they changed writers or what, but something about it was just too stupid. If I remember correctly, they brought back some person that died, or someone did something unforgivable in season 1 and then they’re back on the squad for… reasons? I dunno, it was so jarringly stupid I stopped watching a show based entirely on my favorite Star Trek captain. If your show, about Picard, turns off hardcore TNG fans… then, what are you even doing?
Though I’ve heard that season 3 is good multiple times now, so perhaps I’ll try to reengage
You should watch season 3. The only things to know about season 2 is that they wrote off all but 1 of the new characters, and that it’s entirely unimportant for season 3.
Voyager had it’s own “Measure of a Man” episode a la the EMH in Season 7, episode 20 “Author, Author”. A lot of the same themes were there. But what has bothered me for years is at the end of the episode, it’s implied that there is a number of EMH units that have been “reading” the Doctor’s holonovel, and building a resistance.
This was never explored in any future Star Trek, was it? It wasn’t talked about in Picard or Lower Decks. And Picard had the whole AI plot line.
Your argument ignores one important aspect.
They were looking for a reason to de-person him, to take him apart, and to build loads more like him to be used as slave labor in mines and other dangerous places.
That’s because Star Trek is sometimes a show about introducing basic philosophy and ethics to American nerds who genuinely could not and often still do not grasp the idea of giving at least theoretical personhood to someone that wasn’t biological.
Just ask half of this community what they think about Fallout 4 synths if you don’t believe it.
Hot take. But put it in the context of the year it was aired, not today. Star Trek (and sci fi in general) was suffering from being perceived as “blue babes and laser guns”.
This episode was thoughtful if taken as standalone. And TNG really was about taking the episodes more or less independently. The season long story arcs and such didn’t exist. People weren’t binge watching. So the world building was less important than the specific hypothetical moral quandary of the week. Like, they are almost like Asimov short stories with a shared cast.
It wasn’t until a few years later that serialized TV even really became a thing – Twin Peaks probably was the first here, but Babylon 5 would have a good claim (and DS9, Buffy, and others were coming together then too). So the style of storytelling on TNG S2 is different.
Divorce the story from Star Trek and the setting and evaluate it as a sci fi ethical quandary. And in that framework, it is a remarkable episode.
Also, Brent Spiner played it well :)
And TNG really was about taking the episodes more or less independently.
This era was also the high water mark for syndicated TV which really drove the episodic format. Viewers couldn’t be guaranteed the show would air on the same channel or even the same timeslot. So long form serial TV were really rare.
I think that’s a terrific argument and it is always wise to contextualize it in history.
We have absolutely been binging which certainly gives it a different feel, but I would argue even as a standalone episode it was poorly written if superbly performed.
There are ideas that could have been played with in a way that respects the setting. Perhaps another computer attempting to join Starfleet, but it looks like a box rather than a person and asks Data to argue its personhood.
I don’t know. I’m not a writer and I’m just spitting an idea off the top of my head, but I think there’s a place for internal consistency within a narrative regardless of when it was written.
There is an episode later where Data defends the rights of a less-human-looking artificial life (the one with exocomps), though no courtroom scenes.
I think most star trek episodes can be torn apart pretty easily - I actually enjoy pointing out errors while I watch. But it’s good drama and themes with fun characters in an optimistic future, which is still a rarity decades later.
(This is vague enough that I don’t feel spoilers are necessary)
Perhaps another computer attempting to join Starfleet, but it looks like a box rather than a person and asks Data to argue its personhood.
They kind of had that exact opportunity in Discovery. But instead of an entire courtroom episode, it was more of a forced arbitration scene :(
Honestly I agree, the legal parts were cringe. I even saw a legal analysis of it on YouTube and they thought it was legally great.
But it’s pretty simple in my mind: if he didn’t have agency, he wouldn’t have been able to join Starfleet. The very basis of Starfleet accepting him means that he is capable of making his own decisions. And the very act of accepting him means he is not the property of Starfleet.
Either way Data is out. Sentient because you accepted him. Not sentient means his acceptance contract is void and obviously not property of Starfleet.
Starfleet rescued him off the planet and reactivated him. He was next to Lore who was completely disassebled. To people thinking Data isn’t a person, it was a salvage operation, not a rescue. Same as getting back a derelict doesn’t make it a person and makes it the property of Starfleet.
Data. Lor.
Lore.
Data and Lore are 2 different kinds of information.
That just occurred to me.
I’m having a hard time understanding what you’re trying to say.
Salvage rights are very complex on their own, you don’t automatically own other stuff simply because you come to their rescue (as in rescuing a ship) or flip a switch. It’s quite literally someone else’s property. So Starfleet didn’t own him.
Second, he’s an officer. You have to apply to officer school. Just like the children on the ship aren’t automatically enrolled in Starfleet, they and he have to apply. It’s a serious application. It’s not like this android was just kicking around on a ship and fell into being an officer. (Same goes for enlisted.) *For anyone that doesn’t want to read my next longer comment: Data signed a contract to enlist. To sign a contract requires agency, which starfleet accepted.
Abandonned property can be taken and used. It was thought that whoever was the “owner” of Data died in the crystaline entity incident.
As for enlistment - Data could learn what he needed to probably in a day. He was a huge asset and denying him entry would be a detriment to Starfleet, even if he was a “thing”. I don’t see enlisting as something that would only be offered to humans / not things, we see a ship “enlist” in Discovery for instance.
First, was it abandoned or were the residents fleeing for their lives under duress? Yeah the latter. This is very far from being long abandoned property. Even if the owner was killed, it’s not a sudden finders keepers. There are wills, or even without a will there are still legal inheritors that the courts figure out. Again, this is not an event from long ago, it literally just happened. If you want to claim legal ownership rights over something that wasn’t yours to begin with, it’s a serious task and the burden is on you. You don’t automatically assume legal ownership, basically the court would have to find in your favor that you can claim salvage. Until and unless that happens, you don’t have legal ownership. That means any difficulty/ambiguity/complexity in the matter leans away from the courts giving you legal ownership. Also, generally as the value of the object goes up, the difficulty of the salvage ownership claim goes up. The value and complexity of a working android is unfathomable and the difficulty of your salvage claim just shot into the stratosphere.
Second enlistment. This is not about learning. Enlisting is a contract. You need to have agency to sign that contract. This is why people under 18 and feeble minded people can not enter into a contract - they do not have agency.
That’s what Picard should have argued: 1) The very act of Starfleet accepting Data’s signature shows they thought Data had agency. Precedent was set. That means both sentience and the ability to decide to resign. That alone basically wins the case. But failing that we can look at the other side: 2) If the judge says that he has no agency to resign from Starfleet, that means that Data never had agency to enlist in Starfleet in the first place. The entire contract is null and void. Data has no legal relationship with Starfleet, they can not give him orders to report to Maddox, and Data is free to go. Which leaves you with the salvage claim, and as above good luck with that you’re going to need it.
That’s basically the same as what I said before but with more elaboration. That’s as elaborate an explanation that I care to make so I think that’s my last reply.
What about him joining Star Fleet proves without any doubt that he is a person?
It’s not about proving it beyond a doubt, the OP’s frustrarion is about how the whole courtroom drama was inaccurate.
The assumtion is this: Legally, Starfleet only allows sapent adults to join its ranks. So a toaster cannot be a starfleet officer, and neither can a dog.
The fact that he is an officer means that in legal terms, Starfleet has already decided that he is a person, and any court that asks this question has a quick and easy answer.
neither can a dog
Admiral Porthos: Am I a joke to you?
I fervently disagree. I think you can view it in a very optimistic and utopic way.
When confronted with his friend’s sentience and individuality being questioned, Captain Picard chose to debate on the basis of data being a person and deserving rights. Sure you could’ve just said that data was a person because Starfleet accepted him. But does that specifically extend to all androids or beings in similar circumstances? I think it’s a good character moment for Picard that he chooses to argue on the basis that star fleet is better than stripping away someone’s agency. And he wins too. Ultimately the federation comes to agree with that view point. Thats why it is a utopic society. Because when faced with a moral dilemma they didn’t simply choose “technically legally correct” they chose “morally right”.
You forgot that it was starlet that created the need for this legal argument in the first place.
If the judge was truly moral; this trial would never have happened. If starfleet was moral, the docheberger that wanted to dismantle data would never have been a member.
Also the other best defense would have been to ask docuheberger to prove he’s not just a machine, and crusher explain in intricate detail how they can reassemble Ryker’s brain. And reattach Ryker’s limb after Warf rips it off.
(Okay, so maybe I don’t like Ryker.)
Yeah they encountered something new in the universe and they had to decide on what to do. They decided to do the moral thing for moral reasons. Starfleet isn’t a utopia but it’s utopic because of instances like this where the right thing is done for the right reasons.
The fact they had a trial to determine data’s personhood and that it was agonizingly close, that they were actually considering denying it.
If they were truly moral, the question would have never come up; or Maddox and the general would have been slapped down with a scathing “don’t be evil”.
Also, at that point data was hardly new- he’s been in starfleet for 20+ years in which Data earned his place as a decorated Lt. Commander.
In any case, this isn’t even a question for a starfleet court - this would fall under civil purview, and even hearing the trial is a miscarriage. (Also the IFP courts probably have some sort of test that doesn’t require destructive testing. Details.)
Yeah sitting down and discussing all viewpoints before coming to consensus is clearly beneath Starfleet. They should just automatically know the right thing to do (which is obvs what I think is right) and clearly a interplanetary civilisation wouldn’t have any sort of conflict of interest/opinion.
Obviously the guy suing should understand data is clearly a person despite being a new ‘unique’ form of life in the universe that they have never interacted with before. Like come on are you telling me everyone in the federation hasn’t watched tng and become emotionally attached to the characters like I have.
Stoopid episode 0/10
Yeah sitting down and discussing all viewpoints before coming to consensus is clearly beneath Starfleet. They should just automatically know the right thing to do (which is obvs what I think is right) and clearly an interplanetary civilisation wouldn’t have any sort of conflict of interest/opinion.
Except that’s not what’s happening here. This is a criminal trial under military/starfleet law to determine if Data has the right to refuse.
This isn’t some arbitration hearing this is a criminal trial. Remember, they came and ordered him, Picard tried to stop it and failed so Data resigned his commission.
Maddox’s argument is that a toaster doesn’t get to do that. (Conveniently ignoring that toasters aren’t commissioned officers to begin with.) it’s prima facie an attempt to coerce data into doing research that will almost certainly kill him; for dubious scientific benefit.
Obviously the guy suing should understand data is clearly a person despite being a new ‘unique’ form of life in the universe that they have never interacted with before. Like come on are you telling me everyone in the federation hasn’t watched tng and become emotionally attached to the characters like I have.
Fascesiousness aside, yes. That’s exactly what should have happened.
Remember that thing called the Prime Directive? several core bits would simply not work without some definitive test as to who or what has personhood and who or what doesn’t.
Maddox’s position has the same level of standing as the recent Florida case against newspapers, where the judge responded “It’s the 4th Amendment, idiot.”
Even further there’s 20+ years of Data passing as a person so well that no one before The Jackass ever questions it. Almost like, because he meets the criteria in the same way that Jackass or Picard or Troy or even the blue barber guy does.
It’s only when Jackass wants to destructively clone Data that it’s even brought up as a question.
So YES, ABSOLUTELY, this trial should never have been allowed to ever happen.
The dumbest part is when the JAG appoints Riker as the…plantiff/prosecutor? And threatens to summarily vote in the plantiff’s favor if he refuses to serve in that capacity. “If you don’t do anything, you win.”
I can barely stand TNG
I can barely stand TNG
Seriously though it is slow and pretty boring. No to mention the special effects are just bad.
Give me the original series or something a little newer. TNG is just so bad.
the special effects are just bad
Give me the original series
*blink
What bothered me most about this ep is that Riker is forced to act as some kind of prosecutor. And he’s like no, I won’t do it. And she’s like you better do it, and to the best of your ability yada yada or else I’m gonna something something. Like how is she gonna know if he does this to the best of his ability. Why wouldn’t he just completely blow it? Or at least in some plausible attempt at an effort. What was she gonna do then, have another trial for Riker for being a bad fake lawyer? Is the concept of conflict of interest not a thing in future robot court?
The court thing mandates that high ranking officers are to assume the different positions needed for trial. His duty was to be the prosecutor at that moment. Not doing that could’ve been grounds for a court martial. Imagine him doing that for a murder case for someone else, totally ignoring the rules. There is no difference between a murder case and Data’s case. It would also lead to a mistrial. Sooo he would skirt his duty risking his career and nothing would change in the end - Data would probably have a new trial anyway.
Edit: there is the glarinf issue - a conflict of interest.
This is such a weird way to look at the world. “It must be this way because there are rules that say it must be that way and if we don’t follow the rules than the rules say we must fuck the career of anyone not following them.” Completely ignoring that these are rules that were made up by people with the intent of creating a capable and fair system and if the rules are bad, they can and should be changed.
Plus if you can’t find anyone to argue a position, maybe it’s a sign that that position doesn’t have much of a leg to stand on. It also doesn’t say anything good about Riker who was willing to risk his friend’s future and freedom to argue a position he strongly disagreed with because his career was at stake.
The whole point of this episode is to challenge the viewer to think about the arguments. That’s all. Is it stupid as far as realism? Yeah it kinda is. But is it a subject matter many of the viewers at the time of it airing were thinking about? No.
I imagine the idea the writer had was “let’s challenge what the viewer thinks and/or feels without them knowing”. There’s a lot of that in ST throughout the years and I, for one have always been here for it.
It’s not the best episode, but it’s certainly not the worst.
Having not seen it or any of TNG; is it perhaps supposed to be hated, an allusion to other (obvious) demands for human rights? To be deliberately infuriating that it’s even a question?
Its an allegory for the civil rights movement regarding race if I recall correctly, which I think people appreciate, and are just frustrated with certain details of how the story was contrived to express its ideas.
I remember liking it okay, but I frankly don’t remember it well, I mostly just remember sobbing a lot at the episode where data has a child because I love Data a whole bunch
