People seem to be forgetting the mod reminder, and I’m tired of deleting posts and banning people and I do not want to lock the thread, so here is a reminder of the reminder.
I’m going to continue judging them for the party they belong to because its a valid proxy for all the other stuff.
I see three main types of people that voted for trump, the easily duped, racists and the rich that don’t care how they get their money. If someone tells me they voted for this guy I loose all respect for them. I’m sure that there’s some one issue voters out there but I would lump them into the first category. I have even less respect for someone that doesn’t like trump but did not vote.
I’m at a loss of what to even do. I would like to see the dnc grow a pair of balls and take on these monsters. I would like to see the dnc organize a national boycott on any company even closely tied to musk and trump. The protests are fine to show solidarity but the people in charge will not see it. Hitting the companies in the wallet that are helping musk and trump destroy our country would be a good cause IMHO.
I’ve lived all around this country and I think the biggest bucket that you exclude is “people who grew up their whole lives in Republican communities that also don’t care about politics nearly as much as chronic Internet users”. these people go to the booths and go ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ before voting for whoever’s campaign banner they saw around town more or whoever they heard a relative mention. these people are everywhere. they aren’t even bad people or misinformed dummies, per say, just willingly uninformed. for a large swath of Americans, being Republican is just the default unfortunately.
If someone lacks the intellectual curiosity to question their own beliefs, they’re fucking dumb (and probably lazy). That’s the first box, assuming “easily duped” means what we all know it means.
they certainly shouldn’t have been voting but no one wants to think about putting up barriers to keep idiots out of democracy.
pretty elitist thing to think imo. some people just don’t want or have the time to concern themselves with certain things. I’m honestly envious of those people. I wish I could care less.
This is the political awareness equivalent of telling people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.
People are overworked, lack childcare, have poor healthcare, come from underfunded schools, never get exposed to diversity, etc… Just because it’s possible to escape those conditions and doesn’t mean it’s natural or easy.
Saying people are dumb and lazy is a thought terminating cliché, you have to view that as an extension of the problem.
Assuming you’re correct, what alternative is there besides MAGAs getting gut-punched with reality? All the issues that you say contribute to the problem are being exacerbated by Trump.
There might not be an easy alternative right now.
People tend not to internalize a problem until they can personally see it, and a lot of these problems (deportations, cutting education, handcuffing the CDC, etc…) might not affect them until things get truly bleak. Unless of course they do something reckless like directly cutting funds that goes directly to their wallets (Medicare or Social Security).
Spreading awareness has always been a huge problem. Activists in Tsarist Russia had the same problem of trying to reach out to uneducated rural peasants and their efforts didn’t go smoothly. And of course this was before everyone had hand held disinformation machines in their pockets.
I don’t have a magic bullet but we do have some things going for us. It’s not yet illegal to spread radical ideas, our targets are generally literate, and we still share a fair number of cultural references.
The following is my best guess at advice, I’m just as open to ideas as giving them:
The tricky part is that mainstream social platforms are a non starter. You’d never outweigh the echo chamber. In my opinion digital organization is secondary at best because anything can be suppressed at the whim of server owner, ISP, or government.
So as dumb as it sounds, go forth and talk to people in real life. Be sure you’re educated on what you want to talk about (read your history and theory, know what political buzzwords actually mean). Try to avoid activities that insulate you in your own comfort zone, and gravitate towards ones with wide appeal and low barriers to entry.
Start a woodworking club with some like minded friends or join a book club and offer suggestions. Running group, bodybuilding, birdwatching, whatever… If you want to do some good for your community, join a mutual aid network.
Try to know the narrative these people are living in, even if it’s a fantasy. Avoid trigger words they’re primed to react to, keep it simple and let them draw their own conclusions. Not everyone will be receptive, some people are just assholes.
It’s not sexy but it’s also not that hard to point out glaring injustices in the world. Most people can at least see that far and agree that something needs to change, starting that conversation is first step.
There’s also the “vote to hurt people I don’t like” group:
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/1/8/18173678/trump-shutdown-voter-florida
I knew one of those types. The first Trump campaign he straight up said he wanted to see the US destroyed and that’s why he was voting. He used to be a run-of-the-mill liberal dude but got caught up in stupid 4 Chan and shit and became a huge mysogynist and racist. It was sick watching him turn and become emboldened over the years.
Accelerationists are a blight. That sucks.
Exactly why the vote is secret
America is waking up to the reality, as Germany once did, that 1/3 of their population wants to kill another 1/3 while the other 1/3 watches and stands by.
The tools that were used to drive Germany to madness are much the same we’re seeing today. A lot of that first 1/3 is being bombarded with mass media saying “Black people are trying to kill you! Leftists are trying to rob you! The Evil Biden Government is trying to transgender your children!” over and over and over for decades on end.
This isn’t just Americans waking up one morning and deciding to be MAGA chuds. It is a product of two generations of intense right-wing propaganda through every avenue of mass media.
That’s the one thing that gives me hope: their views changed radically but only in one generation through concentrated, directed effort. Calling people idiots or sheep misses the point that this is the natural result of exposing people to this shit daily.
Nobody in history ever thought people are inherently rational and considerate, society is held together through a culture that reinforces it. The tools of the information age can rapidly and drastically shape our society however we want it, we just need to pull them out of the hands of those billionaires burning civilisation to the ground for their own benefit.
It’s also Americans not doing anything about it for the last two generations. The right-wing propoganda machine has been a threat for literally my entire life, but it has been allowed to complete its ultimate goal without anyone actually trying to stop it.
Oh boy, I am seeing it first half my country. An old friend of mine shares right wing propaganda several times a day, and doesn’t matter how many times I try to counter argument - he just doesn’t care. No reply, no reaction, no nothing. Not even responding to DMs.
Lost cause these people, and I’ve got better things to do than driving two hours just to knock on his door and talk some fucking sense into him.
At least I am getting positive reaction from people who see what kind of bullshit he shares.
I honestly think the answer has to be banning the content. I don’t understand why we allow people to lie and demonize minorities on the internet and TV, it seems pretty obvious what giving a platform for hateful ideology leads to. For Americans, this level of censorship was a bridge too far, but hopefully other countries realize that it’s a necessary bulwark against the rise of fascism.
But how could we ban the content when the owners of the media are fascists? When all three branches of the government are dominated by people who rely on this messaging?
There was a time when this wasn’t the case, and there was independent media in the United States. Unfortunately, that was when it needed to be nipped in the bud.
I honestly think that removing the Fairness Doctrine doesn’t get pointed to enough as one of Reagan’s massive blows to the U.S.
Your message is true, but your stats are off. Trump only got something like 15% of the total voting population in the US and won by like 1.5% of the vote. Studies say that historically, 60% of Americans are more liberal than the government - and that includes when Democrats have been in power.
Conservatives are a minority, and the MAGA crazies even more so. They just shout really loudly to convince everybody that they’re a majority. The real issue is that 50% or so of Americans simply don’t care enough to vote against fascism or care more about maintaining the facade of order than freedom. Like MLK said, the biggest threat to equal rights isn’t the white supremacist, but the white liberal who cares more about a negative peace than true justice.
Your numbers don’t seem right to me. He got ~45% of registered voters and ~28% of adults. Where’s your 15% from?
Don’t assume someone who voted for Trump lacks morals or is racist etc.
They could just be really stupid. Did you think of that?
Not sure why you’re being downvoted for being right. If the people who voted for Trump:
- Had 8 years to see exactly what Trump was like, and
- AREN’T wealthy business owners
…what other conclusions are there?
Cruelty is their primary motivation
Hate
Im not American, so here is an outside viewpoint.
Being frustrated with cost of living going up Being ridiculed for just beng a republican voter Being frustrated with the country not putting their own tax paying citizens first
And now everyone on reddit and lemmy making it even worse Im affraid you’ll lose again. Jist keep alienating a majority of your people and see how it goes.
I was frustrated and angry at my government, you know what I did?
I cast a protest vote for the PSL. A lot of people Lemmy are going to be mad about that because they’re Dem partisans, but many people cast protest votes or stayed home. People who refused to vote for Harris I can understand.
To actually vote for Trump you have to be extremely confused. Fortunately, when prices don’t go down, everyone will realize he isn’t helping either. Then things get spicy!
Consider average intelligence, consider now that half of them are dumber than that.
Yes, this is true for many.
Or just disinformed
It gets even more basic than that.
Trump is just plain repulsive.
One problem is the GOP has been taken over and continually converted to MAGA; it started with calling people “RINOs,” attacking each other for party purity.
“Democrats fall in love; Republicans fall in line.”
America held an election. Democracy made a choice. All those that stand against democracy will also be judged by history.
We have strong evidence that that choice is NOT the one that was made.
Weimar Republic held an election. Democracy made a choice. All those stand against Adolf Hitler will be judged by history
FTFY
History doesnt judge people
Nobody claims that WW2 was because of voters, that the Poland invasion was because of the soldiers
The people leading the propaganda are blamed
Nobody claims that WW2 was because of voters
Maybe if folks had been shamed into not supporting the Nazis and their hollow, superficial, hateful “solutions” we wouldn’t even have an example with such obvious and clear parallels to draw upon.
The people leading the propaganda are blamed
Nobody should be (or seems to have) fucking absolved them for handing their nation to fascists, either.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/german-civilians-forced-see-real-11908228
History does judge people. The nazi soldiers have caught a ton of grief, even in my lifetime. The israli soldiers currently serving are frequently compared to nazi soldiers both in meme and article form.
Yes the leaders get most (and should) of the blame. But people do remember the other people making it possible. (google the Yaroslav Hunka scandal for a example).
Ill probably be considered a fascist myself in my descendants eyes, having not run for office or started/participated in a violent revolution. (I am holding out hope I might still be able to participate at least).
And yet, so many people’s German grandfathers refused to talk about what they did during the war. Despite the lack of judgment.
You have the freedom to decide, you do not have the freedom from the consequences on your decisions.
Stop, you dont need to dive bomb them, gal!
The problem is people like Andrea Junker here have gone way past the point of reasonability with their claims. So the people who are “supporting racism, …etc” don’t actually believe that they’re doing that. Because one teeny step out-of-line on the left, and you’re labeled right wing, and jumped on by thirsty hoards of people who would rather eat their own.
Nobody who’s voting republican actually believes you when you say they are supporting these things, because we live in clown world, and they’re all brainwashed into thinking that you’re lying.
I tell people this constantly, and get ignored or chided for the thought. Meanwhile, I’ve got a previously Trump supporter boss, who I’ve slowly become friends with and have shown him the problems on the right and moved him further to the left.
It can be done, but it requires not being a rabid animal about it.
Because one teeny step out-of-line on the left, and you’re labeled right wing
Genuinely trying to figure out what you’re referencing. Are we talking “one teeny” Daniel Perry shooting? Or is this “one teeny” mega-millionaire Dave Chappelle not getting a sixth Netflix comedy special because he’s become too transphobic? Or is this “my kids won’t talk to me anymore because I screamed ‘Pull your pants up!’ at Kendrick Lamar during the Superbowl Halftime Show”?
I tell people this constantly, and get ignored or chided for the thought.
:-/
I’ve got a previously Trump supporter boss, who I’ve slowly become friends with and have shown him the problems on the right and moved him further to the left.
Doing the yeoman’s work of leftism by… checks notes… sucking up to my Trump-loving boss.
When you have a job you sometimes need to get along with your boss.
When you become as reactionary as your opponents, then you’re no better than them. Thank you for not being like this.
Ever since the run up to Trumps first presidency I think you would agree that the republican party has become increasingly unhinged. And how has the democrats responded? With civility (in most cases.) And where has that got them? Your democracy is being dismantled, oversight removed, aid removed, trade wars with allies, etc. They got here by arguing in good faith, by being civil and not wanting to be labelled a reactionary.
Oh, and if you honestly believe you’re no better if you’re being reactionary towards fucking nazi saluting cunts, then fuck you. From the bottom of my heart, get absolutely fucked
Being reactionary to a nazi salute at a presidential inauguration is warranted, reasonable, and useful.
Being reactionary to my 70 year old neighbor who ate too many paint chips as a child because he had a Trump sign in his lawn for 2 weeks before the election is less useful.
Being reactionary against an anonymous stranger in your own digital echo chamber is pointless (assuming their bad argument isn’t also in bad faith).
On the contrary, the fascist bastards need to be called out. I wasn’t defending THEM, I was defending the average right of center voter. Those fascist animals should be put down. I’m not your enemy. They are.
I was defending the average right of center voter
Who voted for the fascists, making them fascists themselves
You have the Declaration of Independence, Second Amendment rights, and you know who they are.
Thus you see the utter banality of evil and how it gains power and momentum. From people not actually DOING something.
What are YOU going to DO to stop them, American?
So If I am as vehemntly against murderers as they are about murdering, I’m as bad as the murderer?
You’ve nicely summed up centrism.
Walk softly, and carry a big stick. You have the Declaration of Independence and the Boston Tea Party to guide any future actions you take to stop your current fascist leader. DO SOMETHING. You’re fucking up my country too.
Just FYI, you sent me a PM with your wrong sockpuppet account. You were supposed to use kreskin, not the account you used to reply to yourself:
And you might read the last part of the first paragraph of the Wikipedia link you didn’t read since it backs me up.
The Boston Tea Party? You mean the thing the colonists tried to blame on Native Americans?
Maybe people shouldn’t be guided by extremely fucking racist things when trying to stop a fascist?
Nobody who’s voting republican actually believes you when you say they are supporting these things, because we live in clown world, and they’re all brainwashed into thinking that you’re lying.
I tell people this constantly, and get ignored or chided for the thought. Meanwhile, I’ve got a previously Trump supporter boss, who I’ve slowly become friends with and have shown him the problems on the right and moved him further to the left.
I’m not going to chide you, but after 8 years of trying, it’s only gotten worse.
I’m done. I need to focus on keeping my family safe and away from magas.
If you are having better luck changing hearts and minds, I applaud you for it. IME they aren’t interested in listening to anyone but Trump.
They’ve gone to the election spouting claims immigrants are eating peoples pets, that they’re going to evict them all etc. If you’ve paid any attention to the run up for the election and yet claim they’re not voting for racist politics I really don’t know what to tell you.
They’re racists. Voting for the republican party because they’re spouting racist claims, backing it up with nazi salutes and racist acts.
She’s not being a rabid animal. She’s calling it for what it is. You’re not obliged to use kiddie gloves with these cunts
Nobody’s born a nazi, and in my opinion painting millions of people with a broad brush solves nothing even if feels righteous. There’s a whole spectrum of people ranging from apathetic to ignorant to hateful and inflammatory.
As funny as it is to call someone an idiot for voting based on the price of eggs, it lacks empathy for what that might mean to some people. What if all you’ve been eating is instant ramen with an egg to pay for a medical bill that insurance didn’t cover and now you can’t even afford that.
You might be more inclined to scroll past yet another “Trump says wild shit” headline but engage more with right wing Tik Tok content arguing that the system is broken because of the ((woke-ism)) and ((DEI)). Even if you don’t believe it, now the social media algorithm has your weak spot and can put you in an echo chamber to exploit it…
Are there still people out there waving swastikas and chanting racist shit in red hats? Sure. But screaming at them won’t change anything. If someone can be changed, you’re not going to reach them now with lecturing and scolding. It’s not kiddie gloves, it’s taking a realistic approaches to convince real human beings
Careful citizen, it seems you’ve had a little too much to think.
More seriously, I wish you all the luck in the world with convincing people that their personal two minutes hate isn’t a good thing.
Doesn’t help that there’s a lot of people down so low that idealogical elitism and self righteousness is nearly all they have going for them. It’s a legitimate issue that there are a bunch of people who are so depressed about the state of the world that they end up defining themselves by the fact that they aren’t part of the “bad group”, so any humanization of that group robs them of something vital to them.
My challenge is many of these people voted to directly remove my equal rights and to potentially place me in a camp. How do I deal with those folks?
Bro literally sounded the independent thought alarm.
Upvoting before your comments gets yeeted by mods
They said nothing to get “yeeted” by mods.
You, and others, however, have either been outright violating rule 1 (be respectful) or are sure as hell skirting that line.
And before you start crying unfairness, people who have attacked you have been getting their posts removed too.
So how about before you decide that us mods are super, duper, trooper unfair, you maybe take a look at the fact that you’re getting a benefit.
What they are saying is some are so stupid they don’t see the racism for what it is.
Just because they live in a clown world doesn’t mean we do.
Honestly at this point I don’t know if any Trump voters are intelligent enough to understand how wrong they are and how they’ve enabled really shitty people to do horrible things.
Like, genuinely, is it worth even trying to be nice or have a conversation in good faith when it’s basically impossible to do that even if you try. These folks are so far divorced from reality you can’t have a good faith convo because they don’t respect truth and won’t engage in good faith themselves.
You can’t really force these idiots to understand how wrong this shit is when they seemingly can’t even comprehend it. Like they’re just genuinely that fucking dumb.
history won’t do shit if it’s controlled by tech billionaires until they destroy the planet.
There’s a tiny part of me that’s willing to allow that the people voting for him in 2016 just wanted to make their protests heard. Even though he was very, very clear who he is and what he stands for, people were struggling and made themselves heard in the shittiest possible way.
But the people who voted him in again, knowing exactly how it’s going to shake out could all drop dead at once and I wouldn’t shed a tear. Fuck every one of those cunts.
