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Joined 10 months ago
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Cake day: January 15th, 2024

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  • The question is perhaps abstract and difficult to answer, but it’s perfectly valid.

    I say that it’s actually impossible to answer, except in the most extreme cases.

    My point is that the child at no point enters into the question of consent.

    That is because the question was about rights, not consent. The child can’t consent, because existence is a presupposition to consent. That’s why that anti-natalist gotcha doesn’t make sense. It doesn’t follow the rules of formal logic. It’s like a paradox, but formulated as a question.

    The only way to have a “right” is for the people around you to agree that you have them.

    In what way is that different to negotiation?

    I think maybe that’s more morality than “rights,” but I’m not sure how clear the distinction is between them.

    As I don’t really give much of a crap about the whole concept of rights, I’d say: forget about the distinction.

    I am claiming that birth is a violation of consent. Conception is meaningless to me unless it comes to fruition and bears a conscious being.

    But birth is a natural result of conception.

    Can you describe the paradox?

    As I said above: Existence is a presupposition to consent. The premise violates formal logic.




  • You yourself said they are not yet existent, so really is joy being “withheld”? That doesn’t work in your framework, I think.

    I’m simply meeting your non-sensical argument where it’s at. How is there a ranking of “goodness” at all, be it “bad, because suffering”, or “good, because joy” for the presupposition of existence? That’s like demanding a serious answer for: “how many angels can dance on the tip of a needle?”

    You only mentioned the rights of the parents (in a strangely cold and transactional way btw lol).

    You asked who gave me as the parent the right. In what way is it transactional? Where is transaction happening? Why is it cold? Who “gives” any rights from your point of view? God?

    What of the child’s rights? They must negotiate with you for them after their nonconsensual birth?

    What are you talking about?

    It’s not hypothetical–a child is born. They live and experience.

    You’re claiming by conceiving a child, you’re violating its’ consent. At that point, nothing exists, yet. It’s only a being whose consent can be violated in the hypothetical future.

    You’re in a paradoxical state where consent doesn’t matter because the kid doesn’t exist, yet they necessarily must exist to experience the joy you mention

    That only happens, because the whole anti-natalist reasons are paradoxical from the start.