I’m talking to people on Lemmy.ml who say things like “Reality has a well known Russian propaganda bias”, “Russia was right to invade Ukraine, it needs to be denazified”, “Uighur genocide is made up”, etc, etc etc, I wouldn’t call that “internal left fighting”
In which things is someone allowed to think differently from the US Democratic party before they are expelled from the left?
And fuck Putin, btw. But there are people with widely diverse points of view on an incredibly amount of matters, that can have common grounds on many other issues. And, at least for me, they’ll need to try harder that just being putin’s useful idiots to be expelled from my definition of what the “left” is.
Especially on a matter as complex as Ukraine war. That I gladly support arming and helping Ukraine, and my country will keep arming al helping Ukraine once USA step back once Trump sits in the office. But I still understand that is a complex issue and that different points of view are expected. I have mine, which is support for Ukraine. Others may support Russia on this. But as long as we both agree on other issues I won’t deny that. If they support end of capitalism, workers rights, LGBT rights or gender equality we would have common ground on those topics.
But I still understand that is a complex issue and that different points of view are expected. I have mine, which is support for Ukraine.
Russia invaded Ukraine. That’s a war of aggression. Russia is wrong in this. Don’t pretend like it’s a “complex issue” and “we need to listen to both sides”.
No, we don’t. Russia is the aggressor, they’re in the wrong, they need to fuck off from Ukraine and Putin be held responsible in a court of international law. There’s no ifs ands or buts about it.
“We could have common ground…”
Yeah I don’t need to have any common ground with people who actively lie, spread disinformation, undermine legitimate information, deny international crimes, deny genocides, spread values of authoritarian nations.
I don’t even identify with any left-right division but I’m definitely not what you’d call an “enlightened centrist”, because that’s a garbage position for garbage people who are afraid of any sort of confrontation.
About a bit less than a hundred years ago there were discussion like “we need to appease this Hitler fellow, seems awfully mad” “maybe if we don’t protest over him taking the Sudetenland, he’ll calm down?”
Would you be intellectually arguing the merits of Hitler’s invasion of Sudetenland as “a complex issue, you have to consider both sides”?
I have a stance. I did say I support Ukraine. Same I say I’m clearly leftist.
But you don’t need to stop being able to think just because you support a side. You can support a side and still understand the complexity of the issue, and that you are supporting the lesser evil.
I still support Ukraine on this. Mostly because Russia initiated hostilities, and because I think the European Union is a better place to live than Russia. We protect people’s rights better. But it’s a complex issue because there are people in some Ukrainian regions that does not want to be Ukrainian anymore, and that does not want to be forced to move away from Russian influence. And this is clearly a proxy war between two empires.
I don’t need to think “all opinions are equal” to be “able to think”. I don’t need to accept Russians saying they’ve done nothing wrong and to “consider it from their point of view.” Russia broke international law.
It’s not a complex issue.
Oh yeah the old “no there’s definitely people who actually want to be Russians in the parts of Ukraine Russia invaded illegally so they should probably maybe be able to keep those illegally invaded areas.” No. Is there documentation of, say, Ukrainian people voting in Russian elections? That might imply they consider themselves Russians, right? Yes, there is documentation of that.
You can say you support Ukraine, and still be apologist for Russia. Those aren’t mutually exclusive.
“You are so radical in your views.”
You’re literally an apologist for Russian authoritarianism. You’re spreading the propaganda that occupied Ukrainians actually want to be Russians. That is bullshit that Russia has been spreading for years. It’s not controversial either. You just keep yourself ignorant, and probably didn’t even click on the link I pasted, and definitely didn’t read it. And you have the nerve to talk to me about the “ability to think”?
“Our citizens are very afraid. Of course if Russians with soldiers come to their flat and ask if they’d like to vote for Putin, everyone will say: OK, yes. Because everyone wants to save their life. But it does not mean that our citizens want to support Putin.”
One resident of the Kherson region - the south-eastern part which is occupied by Russian forces - described to the BBC how voting was organised in his village.
We are unable to disclose his name or location due to security concerns.
“Pro-Russian locals visit households with ballot boxes, accompanied by armed military men. If they knock and no one opens, they move on to the next house. They don’t break into houses, but they do visit,” the local resident said.
They added: "This is ridiculous. What kind of election is it when there are two locals - one holding a list of voters and the other a ballot box - and a military man with a machine gun? This isn’t democracy. It’s a comedy show."
News agencies run by the pro-Kremlin administrations in Donetsk and Luhansk are reporting that up to 99.23% of people voted in favour of joining Russia - a high percentage that would be unusual in a vote of this nature.
Like you can’t… or won’t call bullshit on things like ^ that?
You supposedly being “for Ukraine” doesn’t really matter when you’re touting Russian propaganda, consciously or not.
I hope why you understand that while I’m willing to talk about this topic. I’m not willing to talk about it with you. Knowing that nothing productive will come from it.
You didn’t put yourself in a position where anyone would be willing to talk about anything with you unless they 100% agree with you.
So there’s no point. Why have a debate with someone who is not willing to debate?
Your mind is settled.
I’m just saying that seeing enemies, even in your allies, and being so hostile toward anyone who doesn’t agree 100% with you does not lead to good things.
We all have our red lines. I have mine. But nations or national sovereignty are just not one of my red lines. Or just being in favour of one empire instead of another. Not great red lines to have imho.
It’s not that we’re judging all .ml users. It’s just that any .ml user can be a potential tankie who will defend Putin to his grave, like the admins and mods.
This is reflected in the content on the instance, and what sort of things you’re allowed to post there. Which does influence people using said instance, even if very slightly, and unnoticeably.
I don’t actually agree with the meme, but the humour stems from the fact that it could be true insofar that it’s pretty often that you’ll find shameless tankies wanting to suck Putler off and destroy “western imperialists”.
So I do take comments at their own value, no matter the instance you’re from. But lemmy.ml is almost as shit as lemmygrad.ml
Ah yeah. Good old fashioned social media toxicity.
Mixed with some old good internal left fighting.
The taste of success. Surely.
I’m talking to people on Lemmy.ml who say things like “Reality has a well known Russian propaganda bias”, “Russia was right to invade Ukraine, it needs to be denazified”, “Uighur genocide is made up”, etc, etc etc, I wouldn’t call that “internal left fighting”
In which things is someone allowed to think differently from the US Democratic party before they are expelled from the left?
And fuck Putin, btw. But there are people with widely diverse points of view on an incredibly amount of matters, that can have common grounds on many other issues. And, at least for me, they’ll need to try harder that just being putin’s useful idiots to be expelled from my definition of what the “left” is.
Especially on a matter as complex as Ukraine war. That I gladly support arming and helping Ukraine, and my country will keep arming al helping Ukraine once USA step back once Trump sits in the office. But I still understand that is a complex issue and that different points of view are expected. I have mine, which is support for Ukraine. Others may support Russia on this. But as long as we both agree on other issues I won’t deny that. If they support end of capitalism, workers rights, LGBT rights or gender equality we would have common ground on those topics.
Russia invaded Ukraine. That’s a war of aggression. Russia is wrong in this. Don’t pretend like it’s a “complex issue” and “we need to listen to both sides”.
No, we don’t. Russia is the aggressor, they’re in the wrong, they need to fuck off from Ukraine and Putin be held responsible in a court of international law. There’s no ifs ands or buts about it.
“We could have common ground…”
Yeah I don’t need to have any common ground with people who actively lie, spread disinformation, undermine legitimate information, deny international crimes, deny genocides, spread values of authoritarian nations.
I don’t even identify with any left-right division but I’m definitely not what you’d call an “enlightened centrist”, because that’s a garbage position for garbage people who are afraid of any sort of confrontation.
About a bit less than a hundred years ago there were discussion like “we need to appease this Hitler fellow, seems awfully mad” “maybe if we don’t protest over him taking the Sudetenland, he’ll calm down?”
Would you be intellectually arguing the merits of Hitler’s invasion of Sudetenland as “a complex issue, you have to consider both sides”?
No. Fuck that. Take a stance.
I have a stance. I did say I support Ukraine. Same I say I’m clearly leftist.
But you don’t need to stop being able to think just because you support a side. You can support a side and still understand the complexity of the issue, and that you are supporting the lesser evil.
I still support Ukraine on this. Mostly because Russia initiated hostilities, and because I think the European Union is a better place to live than Russia. We protect people’s rights better. But it’s a complex issue because there are people in some Ukrainian regions that does not want to be Ukrainian anymore, and that does not want to be forced to move away from Russian influence. And this is clearly a proxy war between two empires.
I have my stance, but I’m not blinded by it.
I don’t need to think “all opinions are equal” to be “able to think”. I don’t need to accept Russians saying they’ve done nothing wrong and to “consider it from their point of view.” Russia broke international law.
It’s not a complex issue.
Oh yeah the old “no there’s definitely people who actually want to be Russians in the parts of Ukraine Russia invaded illegally so they should probably maybe be able to keep those illegally invaded areas.” No. Is there documentation of, say, Ukrainian people voting in Russian elections? That might imply they consider themselves Russians, right? Yes, there is documentation of that.
Occupied Ukraine encouraged to vote in Russian election by armed men
Stop being an apologist to Russia.
Do you understand that by calling me Russian apologists, when I’ve said several times that I support Ukraine, is just making my point?
You see enemies even in your allies.
If we are naming moustached men I remember some paranoid mustache men that also thought everyone was his enemy. How did that feel? Ah?
Last paragraph is just a joke, I don’t actually think you are a stalinist just because you are so radical in your views, but you get me.
You can say you support Ukraine, and still be apologist for Russia. Those aren’t mutually exclusive.
“You are so radical in your views.”
You’re literally an apologist for Russian authoritarianism. You’re spreading the propaganda that occupied Ukrainians actually want to be Russians. That is bullshit that Russia has been spreading for years. It’s not controversial either. You just keep yourself ignorant, and probably didn’t even click on the link I pasted, and definitely didn’t read it. And you have the nerve to talk to me about the “ability to think”?
Here’s more.
Ukraine war: Russia claims win in occupied Ukraine ‘sham’ referendums
Like you can’t… or won’t call bullshit on things like ^ that?
You supposedly being “for Ukraine” doesn’t really matter when you’re touting Russian propaganda, consciously or not.
I hope why you understand that while I’m willing to talk about this topic. I’m not willing to talk about it with you. Knowing that nothing productive will come from it.
You didn’t put yourself in a position where anyone would be willing to talk about anything with you unless they 100% agree with you.
So there’s no point. Why have a debate with someone who is not willing to debate? Your mind is settled.
I’m just saying that seeing enemies, even in your allies, and being so hostile toward anyone who doesn’t agree 100% with you does not lead to good things.
We all have our red lines. I have mine. But nations or national sovereignty are just not one of my red lines. Or just being in favour of one empire instead of another. Not great red lines to have imho.
Doesn’t mean all .ml users are like that.
What happens here is an attack on a wide group based on a very arbitrary characteristic.
It’s not that we’re judging all .ml users. It’s just that any .ml user can be a potential tankie who will defend Putin to his grave, like the admins and mods.
This is reflected in the content on the instance, and what sort of things you’re allowed to post there. Which does influence people using said instance, even if very slightly, and unnoticeably.
I don’t actually agree with the meme, but the humour stems from the fact that it could be true insofar that it’s pretty often that you’ll find shameless tankies wanting to suck Putler off and destroy “western imperialists”.
So I do take comments at their own value, no matter the instance you’re from. But lemmy.ml is almost as shit as lemmygrad.ml