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Joined 9 months ago
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Cake day: June 6th, 2024

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  • WolfLink@sh.itjust.workstoMemes@lemmy.mlTank engine
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    14 days ago

    EDIT: I just want to point out how both this and another comment chain in this thread ended the instant I asked the lemmy.ml users to back up their claims.

    I’ve never had any major issues with Wikipedia but I know it can have issues.

    Do you have other sources you’d like to suggest I look at?


  • WolfLink@sh.itjust.workstoMemes@lemmy.mlTank engine
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    14 days ago

    EDIT: I just want to point out how both this and another comment chain in this thread ended the instant I asked the lemmy.ml users to back up their claims.

    Only after the rioters killed over a 100 soldiers was military action taken.
    Only after scores of soldiers dead,
    did the military enter the street where the killings took place and did Chinese military kill the insurgents that killed their soldiers.

    Source? Because that doesn’t match up with what I’ve read, especially the numbers.



  • WolfLink@sh.itjust.workstoMemes@lemmy.mlTank engine
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    17 days ago

    That’s because at least before any other student group decided to storm government buildings which was rumored to happen

    I wouldn’t find it surprising that some of the protestors suggested something like that. But the fact is that this didn’t happen, and the protestors (and bystanders) who were killed were not attempting to break into a government building, attack government officials, or overthrow the government. If they were killed by security guards while attempting to rush the palace, that would be different.

    one group of “peaceful” protesters decided to kill over 100 soldiers on the same street and one day before tank man decided to jump on a tank.

    The protestors did fight back. But that’s a way higher number for military deaths than I’ve seen recorded anywhere, and thousands of civilians (including a lot of bystanders) were dead before tank man did his thing.


  • WolfLink@sh.itjust.workstoMemes@lemmy.mlTank engine
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    17 days ago

    First, what the protestors in Tianamen didn’t do was break into the government buildings with the intent to kill specific members of the government and to overturn the results of an election to install a leader of their own choice. That happened in 2021.

    Also the death toll in 1989 was much much larger.

    If you want a better US example, maybe something like the killing of striking mine workers in the US although I’m struggling to find an example of a single event that comes close to the scale of Tianamen.


  • WolfLink@sh.itjust.workstoMemes@lemmy.mlTank engine
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    17 days ago

    private citizens were operating in way that most reasonable people would call authoritarian, but by your definition cannot be called authoritarian because it’s only authoritarian when the state does it.

    The state absolutely played a roll in using violence to maintain slavery.

    Is it possible for a state to be authoritarian through inaction? Suppose, for example, interracial relationships are technically legal, but every time one happens or is even suspected, a lynch mob strings someone up on a tree, and the government fails to prosecute.

    This is an interesting point. I think strictly it doesn’t “count” but if you consider this behavior as playing a roll for the state, I could see this counting.

    However, again, I think this is missing the point. Something can be despicably violent whether or not it is specifically “authoritarian”.

    But if those people pose a genuine threat to others, then doesn’t the state have an obligation to stop them in order to not be authoritarian

    If it’s a threat to other people yes the state should intervene. If it’s a threat to the political status quo without otherwise needing the government to step in then it’s “authoritarian”. It can be an abuse of power either way.

    And for that matter, isn’t it authoritarian for the US to allow Coca-Cola to fund death squads, in the original example?

    So I’ll admit I had to look this one up. From what I can tell, the stance of the US in that case that it was Colombia’s job to prevent or prosecute crime occurring in its jurisdiction. Personally I do wish big companies would face international consequences more often.

    Applying the definition, I think you could consider this an example of Colombian “authoritarian violence”.


  • WolfLink@sh.itjust.workstoMemes@lemmy.mlTank engine
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    17 days ago

    This would include collecting taxes, enforcing national borders, enforcing private property, all gun control measures, suppressing domestic terrorists and militias, implementing a particular voting system and then enforcing the result, conscription, and indeed, enforcing the concept of “citizen” vs “non-citizens” in the first place. But, again, you’ve cut out an expectation for political violence you agree with already.

    Yes, which was my point. These definitions always have some implicit carve out exception to allow the kind of political violence that the person giving them agrees with to “not count”.

    Sure, at some point it’s a spectrum. From the perspective of anarchism, any government is “authoritarian”.

    And here’s yet another post-hoc definition of tankie that does not actually line up with how anybody uses the term. Or are you willing for me to ping you to chime in every time someone calls me a tankie for something that has nothing to do with the USSR keeping Soviets in the union (incidently, there isn’t a country on earth that will willing let parts of it leave.)

    I got that from Wikipedia. What I saw more recently on .ml was more often about China, North Korea, or Russia’s attack on Ukraine.


  • WolfLink@sh.itjust.workstoMemes@lemmy.mlTank engine
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    17 days ago

    Idk what you think we’re arguing about but I’m curious where this is going.

    It seems pretty clear to me that applying the definition I gave previously of “authoritarian violence” as “state-perpetrated violence against citizens with ideas the state finds threatening”, slavery could be considered “authoritarian violence” but “freeing the slaves” couldn’t.

    If you are specifically talking about the US Civil War, I do think that counts as “authoritarian violence” to the extent that the war was about stopping a group of citizens from rebelling against the government.

    It seems pretty arbitrary to single out one single heirarchy and say that only that heirarchy is capable of being authoritarian.

    To be clear, I’m going off of the Wikipedia definition which defines “authoritarianism” as:

    Authoritarianism is a political system characterized by the rejection of political plurality, the use of strong central power to preserve the political status quo, and reductions in democracyseparation of powerscivil liberties, and the rule of law.

    I read that as pretty specifically applying to governments, but I could see how you could apply the idea to describe things like anti-union efforts.


  • WolfLink@sh.itjust.workstoMemes@lemmy.mlTank engine
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    18 days ago

    So when a corporation uses or sponsors acts of violence it’s not authoritarianism? I guess Coca-Cola-funded fascist death squads are just smol bean libertarians fighting the oppressive tankie socialists!

    Until Coca-Cola is its a government, no, that’s not authoritarianism. That doesn’t mean it’s good. Things can be bad without being authoritarianism.

    You can’t even get your talking points in order. The main people on lemmy.ml are anti-capitalist, they would accuse those who would censor them of being anti-communist.

    Yeah you’re right I was caught between two phrasings and I mixed them up. I edited it to fix it. Thanks for pointing out my mistake!