WillBalls

Maybe I’m reading this wrong, but it sounds like you’re saying Celebrimbor forged the one ring, and Sauron poured his malice into it. That’s incorrect: the one was Sauron’s creation, which he made using the knowledge he gained from assisting in the forging of the seven and the nine.

Of course not! Just because he didn’t write it doesn’t mean you can’t imagine it. It just means there’s no precedent for it, so you have to be creative

Morgoth did indeed have a body for the entirety of the war of wrath.

I believe that in Tolkien’s writings, the only Ainur that lost their bodies were Sauron (during the fall of Númenor, then when the ring was destroyed), Saruman (killed by Grima), Gothmog (killed by drowning/stabbed in the fountain during the fall of Gondolin), Durin’s Bane (killed by Gandalf the grey), and possibly an unnamed balrog (if indeed dead, then slain by Glorfindel during the fall of Gondolin). There’s some mention in Melkor’s Ring(?) that during Melkor’s first chaining, his original body was slain, but I’m not sure if that’s backed up by other writings about his first chaining. Regardless, it’s a pretty small club of fëa separated Ainur, so I’d think that if there was a benefit to splitting from the hröa, it would be made clear

To my knowledge, Tolkien never wrote about a battle between an unbodied fëa and a hröa

The lore reason is essentially that defeating Sauron was mankind’s coming-of-age story (the age of elves was ending, and mankind was set to take over control of middle earth), and having a bunch of maiar come in and wreck Sauron wouldn’t teach men to stand up for what’s right. Instead, Eru told Manwë to send the istari to guide men and elves to defeat Sauron on their own

The “real” reason is that it wouldn’t be a very good story if Manwë just sniped Sauron from the hidden West with magic

You raise a really good point on what the passage of time must feel like to young elves. I’d like to think that elves younger than 1000 years are treated with lots of eye rolls from their elders for brashness, similar to Treebeard telling Merry and Pippin to not be so hasty

Definitely both 😎

I get what you’re saying, but it doesn’t work that way in middle earth according to Tolkien. We have lots of instances of Ainur vs Ainur combat where they don’t pop out of their hröa for more power. The best example is the war of wrath where the host of the valar (including Eönwë, a Maia) goes against Morgoth, the mightiest of the valar, and there’s no mention of that happening. It could be that Tolkien omitted it, but that’s a big enough fight that I think it would have been mentioned if it occured

I think I understand what you mean. A physical body does obey laws of physics and thus restricts the “true freedom” of a whisp or spirit. However, a hröa can also focus and direct the energies innate to a fëa, which could make the being more powerful. In Fëanor’s case, his fëa was the brightest and strongest of all the elves, and when he died, his hröa actually disintegrated due to the power of his fëa leaving, so one could argue (without much evidence) that his spirit was stronger than a physical body could truly handle (but this falls apart when looking at Morgoth or the other Vala’s bodies that don’t burn up).

There’s not a lot of text specifically surrounding the fëa and hröa, but some of it can be gleaned from the silmarillion, or unfinished tales. Tolkien liked his mysticism a lot more in the earlier drafts of the legendarium, so unfinished tales will probably suit you more (although some of those drafts aren’t considered “canon” in light of the silmarillion’s later publishing and research, but that’s another matter entirely).

You’re exactly right with Sauron. He was originally able to shape shift into anything (fun fact: his first appearance was Tevildo Lord of cats, then altered to Thû the necromancer who could turn into a werewolf, then finally Sauron), but after the fall of Númenor, he lost that ability and was left with his body looking dark and evil. By pouring his fëa into the one ring, he risked total doom by its destruction since he wouldn’t have enough power left to maintain even a spiritual form on middle earth.

I don’t think there’s any evidence that a Maiar with a hröa is weaker than a Maia without a hröa. There’s no interaction between a pure fëa Ainur and an embodied Ainur, so there’s no way to get a definitive answer. I would say that without a hröa, the fëa can’t be “focused” and is therefore weaker (from the wiki (no source provided): “According to the Elves, the fëa is powerless without the hröa, and likewise the latter would die without the former.”)

Huh I guess you’re right, my bad. 1000 years is definitely long for men, but I’d say midish for elves ¯\(ツ)/¯

To be fair, the istari were diminished Maiar who weren’t allowed to use their full power, and Sauron was a full Maia with no qualms about flexing his true strength.

Had Manwë been given the license to send just Eönwë, then Sauron would’ve been rekt in a year tops

As stated in unfinished tales, Gandalf didn’t know that Bilbo would find the ring on the adventure. He originally wanted to help Thorin since having dwarves in the lonely mountain would prevent Sauron from attacking Gondor and Lothlórien from the north. The ring finding it’s way to Gollum and then Bilbo was almost definitely due to slight meddling from Eru (just as Gollum’s death was due to Eru loosening the rocks under his feet) so Gandalf could orchestrate the fellowship’s journey.

There’s no exact details given for what the blue wizards (the two in the east) were up to. Tolkien only said they were sewing dissent against Sauron

I haven’t read anything in the legendarium that supports your theory that the hröa (body in quenya) restricts the fëa (soul).

All beings in Arda initially had hröar, but hröar are susceptible to harm regardless of the status of the fëa within (see Morgoth’s wounds, and Sauron and Saruman’s deaths) that could cause the fëa to become unbodied. In the case of the fëa becoming unbodied, the fëa would have to be powerful enough to exist on its own, create a new body (Sauron after the fall of Númenor), be otherwise tied to the world (Sauron after the war of the last alliance with the one ring), or dissipate into nothing (Sauron after the destruction of the one ring and Saruman after his death by Grima’s)

The second age ended with the ending of the war of the last alliance, so Gandalf did arrive later, but “long after”

It’s been a few years since I’ve read the foreword to the Silmarillion, but I’m glad I’m consistent with Christopher’s analysis 😁

It’s similar to searching for consistencies amongst any mythology, which is what Tolkien was attempting to create. Tales will always change over time, and they’ll always shift focus to what the teller determines is important. As focuses of a society shift, so do the focuses of its related mythology. In this way, I think Tolkien did an excellent job creating a united mythos for England in all the different versions of his legendarium. As the tales evolved, consistencies emerged elements which were formerly key, were discarded, and internal references became more commonplace than external references (see Tolkien’s influences from William Morris and Icelandic, Celtic, Germanic, and Anglo Saxon epics)